I'm still thinking about the workshop on eduacation and the "knowledge economy". More later.
It is in quote marks as this is how the academics seem to think about it. I am trying to find out more about a "linguistic turn" and a "realistic turn". Can't make it out at the moment.
Thursday, February 02, 2006
----------------
Mr Gillmor said that the rise of participation from ordinary people means that traditional media must stop lecturing and begin a real dialogue with its readership.
"There is the absolute democratisation of the media with the [ability of] anyone who has access to increasingly professional and cheap tools of production to publish to a global audience," he said.
"It has a big meaning for traditional journalists ... who have to shift from lecture mode into something more like a conversation. The 'former audience' know more than we do and once we embrace that, we can get in to some powerful journalism."
------------------
Extract from Guardian report on discussion at Al Jazeera forum
The same sort of change is happening with teaching and learning, so this will relate to actual lecturers as well.
Mr Gillmor said that the rise of participation from ordinary people means that traditional media must stop lecturing and begin a real dialogue with its readership.
"There is the absolute democratisation of the media with the [ability of] anyone who has access to increasingly professional and cheap tools of production to publish to a global audience," he said.
"It has a big meaning for traditional journalists ... who have to shift from lecture mode into something more like a conversation. The 'former audience' know more than we do and once we embrace that, we can get in to some powerful journalism."
------------------
Extract from Guardian report on discussion at Al Jazeera forum
The same sort of change is happening with teaching and learning, so this will relate to actual lecturers as well.
The Guardian is soon to feature an online opinion discussion called 'comment is free'. Not sure when it will launch.
They recently hosted a discussion about 'citizen journalism'. I'm not sure they understand how far it could go. They mention the NUJ guidelines on "witness reporting" as if occasional photos are all this is about.
I have been posting to Guardain Talk about OhmyNews and also stories on AL-Jazeera. I think soon there will be a bit more clarity on how different forms of media can work together.
Meanwhile I will probably do more blogging and less on Talk.
They recently hosted a discussion about 'citizen journalism'. I'm not sure they understand how far it could go. They mention the NUJ guidelines on "witness reporting" as if occasional photos are all this is about.
I have been posting to Guardain Talk about OhmyNews and also stories on AL-Jazeera. I think soon there will be a bit more clarity on how different forms of media can work together.
Meanwhile I will probably do more blogging and less on Talk.
Wednesday, January 18, 2006
I hope to contribute something to the meeting about 'education in the knowledge economy' in Lancaster later this week.
http://www.lancaster.ac.uk/ias/annualprogramme/kbe/education.htm
There is another event later on organisations and a conference in August. I might try to get a paper together, the deadline is in May.
I am interested in educational organisations. It seems a good focus for ideas about management, leadership etc.
The 'learning organisation' is one suggested topic for the conference. Could be linked to quality assurance.
One theme seems to be a critique of the idea of the knowledge economy as if it were rhetoric, some form of oppression through language etc etc. In some academic contexts it could be challenging to suggest that many descriptions of the knowledge economy are simply stating facts.
http://www.lancaster.ac.uk/ias/annualprogramme/kbe/education.htm
There is another event later on organisations and a conference in August. I might try to get a paper together, the deadline is in May.
I am interested in educational organisations. It seems a good focus for ideas about management, leadership etc.
The 'learning organisation' is one suggested topic for the conference. Could be linked to quality assurance.
One theme seems to be a critique of the idea of the knowledge economy as if it were rhetoric, some form of oppression through language etc etc. In some academic contexts it could be challenging to suggest that many descriptions of the knowledge economy are simply stating facts.
Thursday, December 15, 2005
I have put a link on the Prolearn Forum site to let them know about the article on OhmyNews.
Not sure if they will follow it up but the Approach to knowledge push and pull is useful. There is a part of the Prolearn project to add metadata to learning objects so they can be sequenced. Maybe this won't matter if people work out a sequence for themselves.
I think learning theory is just one aspect of something that happens on the web anyway. Everything is miscellaneous, as in most assumed subjects.
Not sure if they will follow it up but the Approach to knowledge push and pull is useful. There is a part of the Prolearn project to add metadata to learning objects so they can be sequenced. Maybe this won't matter if people work out a sequence for themselves.
I think learning theory is just one aspect of something that happens on the web anyway. Everything is miscellaneous, as in most assumed subjects.
Wednesday, December 14, 2005
I have updated the webpage for Animex, a digital fringe for Animated Exeter
http://www.acrobat-services.co.uk/animation/
There is a page on 'learning' to cover training and education. There is a careers day and also workshops on Photoshop and Flash. This year the Careers Day will be at the Phoenix where there is also now some web access. So a lot could happen around this. I got some CDs off both Adobe and Macromedia in previous years so people goy trial versions. Still not sure what will happen with Adobe / Macromedia but this can be discussed during the festival.
I think I may be going backwards towards hard copy. While Flash in PDF is sorted out we may as well knock page layout on the head. the software is pretty much there surely.
This 'learning' blog may end up much like the other blog on IPEX 2002 , a print show. If 'everything is miscellaneous' as David Weinberger has stated, then these blogs could be better linked.
http://www.acrobat-services.co.uk/animation/
There is a page on 'learning' to cover training and education. There is a careers day and also workshops on Photoshop and Flash. This year the Careers Day will be at the Phoenix where there is also now some web access. So a lot could happen around this. I got some CDs off both Adobe and Macromedia in previous years so people goy trial versions. Still not sure what will happen with Adobe / Macromedia but this can be discussed during the festival.
I think I may be going backwards towards hard copy. While Flash in PDF is sorted out we may as well knock page layout on the head. the software is pretty much there surely.
This 'learning' blog may end up much like the other blog on IPEX 2002 , a print show. If 'everything is miscellaneous' as David Weinberger has stated, then these blogs could be better linked.
OhmyNews have now published the HighWire story. they also put links to some of my previous writing, going back to the original one on the Guardian. I think the Highwire story marks a new stage. The web based knowledge has some plausibility, or at least a theory. I will continue writing up reports as journalism. Maybe later come back to academic forms of writing but I don't think the UK scene on 'management learning' welcomes stuff that is too practical.
Thursday, December 08, 2005
Quality World has an article about ISO 9000 and the recent ISO survey.
The UK is dropping way behind, as I see it. This article has very little prominence compared to previous years when the whole December issue could be about ISO 9000.
I don't think it is sensibe to hide the numbers away. My guess is that in Asia some companies are able to run ISO 9000 and do stuff with quality. the numbers show that momentum has moved there.
The article mentions anxiety and apathy. Maybe this is just in the UK.
More later. The article is not yet on the IQA website.
The UK is dropping way behind, as I see it. This article has very little prominence compared to previous years when the whole December issue could be about ISO 9000.
I don't think it is sensibe to hide the numbers away. My guess is that in Asia some companies are able to run ISO 9000 and do stuff with quality. the numbers show that momentum has moved there.
The article mentions anxiety and apathy. Maybe this is just in the UK.
More later. The article is not yet on the IQA website.
I have posted a story for OhmyNews on HighWire Press offering free journal articles. the occasion was the Online Information show. David Weinberger's keynote on 'Everything is Miscellaneous' is a defining moment, the way I see it.
He challenges accepted ideas about how knowledge is organised, not just in libraries but in subject areas for study. My previous efforts to work with modes 1 and 2 just slot into a much larger picture. He has been putting out similar ideas for a while though, but this is a major venue even if it is a trade show.
Web search reveals similar presentations to the Library of Congress and the Oxford Internet Institute. Suggest search on "everything is miscellaneous".
This kind of approach must be relevant for e-learning. It is coming out of the environment people are using anyway.
My concern is to open up a space where ideas about quality can be included as part of e-learning. I don't think all academics realise the implications for universities as organisations. Maybe they do and just don't like it.
The Online Information event is taking the opposite direction to their keynote speaker. Most of the stands are for content, but there are is maybe a fifth of the space at the back divided up into various labels for technology. Content management, knowledge management, documents and records, search engines and also e-publishing. My claim is that knowledge management implies e-learning. Tim O'Reilley suggests that publishing becomes collaboration in web 2. Blogs and wikis were hot topics this year so maybe Web 2 will be a label sometime soon. Let's assume that Tim O'Reilley will be the keynote speaker for 2006. This is a heuristic device to speed things up.
He challenges accepted ideas about how knowledge is organised, not just in libraries but in subject areas for study. My previous efforts to work with modes 1 and 2 just slot into a much larger picture. He has been putting out similar ideas for a while though, but this is a major venue even if it is a trade show.
Web search reveals similar presentations to the Library of Congress and the Oxford Internet Institute. Suggest search on "everything is miscellaneous".
This kind of approach must be relevant for e-learning. It is coming out of the environment people are using anyway.
My concern is to open up a space where ideas about quality can be included as part of e-learning. I don't think all academics realise the implications for universities as organisations. Maybe they do and just don't like it.
The Online Information event is taking the opposite direction to their keynote speaker. Most of the stands are for content, but there are is maybe a fifth of the space at the back divided up into various labels for technology. Content management, knowledge management, documents and records, search engines and also e-publishing. My claim is that knowledge management implies e-learning. Tim O'Reilley suggests that publishing becomes collaboration in web 2. Blogs and wikis were hot topics this year so maybe Web 2 will be a label sometime soon. Let's assume that Tim O'Reilley will be the keynote speaker for 2006. This is a heuristic device to speed things up.
Friday, December 02, 2005
This could be a relevant link from a previous conference.
Not much has turned up from Online Information by way of comment on the keynote. Maybe there needs to be some time for reflection.
On the official blog David Tebbutt reported that "Nervous laughter echoed around the room. But, in between the laughter, you could almost hear some deep thinking taking place. Engage with the New World or seek early retirement."
By the official blog I mean the Online Information blog. This itself records that the only person with an official blogger badge was Nancy Garman from Information Today.
Not much has turned up from Online Information by way of comment on the keynote. Maybe there needs to be some time for reflection.
On the official blog David Tebbutt reported that "Nervous laughter echoed around the room. But, in between the laughter, you could almost hear some deep thinking taking place. Engage with the New World or seek early retirement."
By the official blog I mean the Online Information blog. This itself records that the only person with an official blogger badge was Nancy Garman from Information Today.
Wednesday, November 30, 2005
Tuesday, November 29, 2005
This is a straight copy and paste from the excellent blog hosted by Information Today
According to Weinberger, who is a philosopher as well as digerati, weare building a hugely messy web of linked metadata, and knowledge isnow constituted by what's interesting to us, not to an unknown expertor rigid Aristotelian hierarchy of information. Now, user-generatedmetadata completely flips the role of an expert. It flips the basicsfrom limits and experts and filters to a way of ordering that isinclusive and can handle an formerly overwhelming abundance ofinformation. No longer is there a limit on how much information we canhave, and no need to filter it on the way into a system, but only onthe way out, and then by a random group of users whose tracking andtagging converge to form knowledge.Weinberger said knowledge now is defined by:What: What's interesting (to us)How: By talkingWho: EveryoneWhere: In global conversationsWhy: Because we care"Knowledge IS the conversation," Weinberger said, turning upside downthe established frame of reference of most of the knowledge workers inthe audience.
Nancy GarmanInformation Today, Inc.ngarman@infotoday.comTechnorati Tag: oi05
http://www.infotodayblog.com/
see my draft article
http://www.acrobat-services.co.uk/drafts/highwire.html
so there is some new copy to work into this later
Meanwhile there are no easy quotes to use from visiting stands
Highwire Press definitely back the ide of proper academic structures and peer review for journal articles.
Google staff in person have nothing to add to what you can find on or through Google.
However, the idea of knowledge push and knowledge pull makes some kind of sense.
According to Weinberger, who is a philosopher as well as digerati, weare building a hugely messy web of linked metadata, and knowledge isnow constituted by what's interesting to us, not to an unknown expertor rigid Aristotelian hierarchy of information. Now, user-generatedmetadata completely flips the role of an expert. It flips the basicsfrom limits and experts and filters to a way of ordering that isinclusive and can handle an formerly overwhelming abundance ofinformation. No longer is there a limit on how much information we canhave, and no need to filter it on the way into a system, but only onthe way out, and then by a random group of users whose tracking andtagging converge to form knowledge.Weinberger said knowledge now is defined by:What: What's interesting (to us)How: By talkingWho: EveryoneWhere: In global conversationsWhy: Because we care"Knowledge IS the conversation," Weinberger said, turning upside downthe established frame of reference of most of the knowledge workers inthe audience.
Nancy GarmanInformation Today, Inc.ngarman@infotoday.comTechnorati Tag: oi05
http://www.infotodayblog.com/
see my draft article
http://www.acrobat-services.co.uk/drafts/highwire.html
so there is some new copy to work into this later
Meanwhile there are no easy quotes to use from visiting stands
Highwire Press definitely back the ide of proper academic structures and peer review for journal articles.
Google staff in person have nothing to add to what you can find on or through Google.
However, the idea of knowledge push and knowledge pull makes some kind of sense.
Earl's Court still has some web access. Side street opposite the station at the moment.
Blog found at Info Today
http://www.infotodayblog.com/
Rely on this if nothing turns up here.
The official blog is at
http://blog.online-information.co.uk/
Blog found at Info Today
http://www.infotodayblog.com/
Rely on this if nothing turns up here.
The official blog is at
http://blog.online-information.co.uk/
Friday, November 25, 2005
I am hoping to get two articles accepted by OhmyNews around Online Information next week.
First one is submitted, waiting on editing. You can find the version as posted.
The next one will be about Highwire from Stanford and the implications for thinking about forms of knowledge. There is some form of learning going on with web searches. This could be a chance for a discussion with academics on what it might be.
Draft at http://www.acrobat-services.co.uk/drafts/highwire.html
pdf open doc
First one is submitted, waiting on editing. You can find the version as posted.
The next one will be about Highwire from Stanford and the implications for thinking about forms of knowledge. There is some form of learning going on with web searches. This could be a chance for a discussion with academics on what it might be.
Draft at http://www.acrobat-services.co.uk/drafts/highwire.html
pdf open doc
Thursday, November 24, 2005
Getting ready for Online Information next week.
I am experimenting with a 'Content Management System' , hosted by Open Mute
My site is a test, not sure how it will develop. The RSS feeds should be there.
I have added another RSS feed found on the official Online Information blog
link for this source
Also I have put in a question about the Open Document format into the blog.
I think there could be more interest in the Open Document during the event. Open source ideas are getting stronger. there is a lot of interest in wikis and blogs. Open Documents could go a stage further. The format is not just a clone of commercial formats such as Word .doc or Acrobat .pdf . It has advantages on both as far as I have discovered so far. XML is arguably a better archiving format than PDF. So far only Open Office 2 is widely available as a way to edit Open Documents. In theory any form of document based collaboration could be possible through open source software.
Hope to find out more over the next week or so.
I am experimenting with a 'Content Management System' , hosted by Open Mute
My site is a test, not sure how it will develop. The RSS feeds should be there.
I have added another RSS feed found on the official Online Information blog
link for this source
Also I have put in a question about the Open Document format into the blog.
I think there could be more interest in the Open Document during the event. Open source ideas are getting stronger. there is a lot of interest in wikis and blogs. Open Documents could go a stage further. The format is not just a clone of commercial formats such as Word .doc or Acrobat .pdf . It has advantages on both as far as I have discovered so far. XML is arguably a better archiving format than PDF. So far only Open Office 2 is widely available as a way to edit Open Documents. In theory any form of document based collaboration could be possible through open source software.
Hope to find out more over the next week or so.
Thursday, November 17, 2005
Now found Latino's bar, 6 Thurnham Street. Opens 11.30. Web is one pound for twenty minutes.
another link http://prolearn.dit.upm.es/madrid/workshop.htm
Prolearn have some links to web 2 on the site
http://knowgate.nada.kth.se:8080/portfolio/main?cmd=open&manifest=amb&uri=urn%3Ax-knowgate.nada.kth.se%3Aamb%3A967
follow links for Ambjörn Naeve,
by the way, library out of order today as it happens.
another link http://prolearn.dit.upm.es/madrid/workshop.htm
Prolearn have some links to web 2 on the site
http://knowgate.nada.kth.se:8080/portfolio/main?cmd=open&manifest=amb&uri=urn%3Ax-knowgate.nada.kth.se%3Aamb%3A967
follow links for Ambjörn Naeve,
by the way, library out of order today as it happens.
Checking out the Adult College in Lancaster. The free web access was fully used but a cup of coffee later and there are three screens available.
In the Guardian Jack Schofield is writing about Web 2.0. It seems that Microsoft has convinced him there is something going on. Still not clear what Web 2.0 is.
"Where Web 1.0 was mainly a publishing medium, Web 2.0 offers more flexibility and interactivity." That is a quote from Jack Schofield, proper print journalist copied from actual hard copy. Not a blog or conference pitch from San Francisco.
As memory serves Tim O'Reilley compares publishing and collaboration as features of 1 and 2. Not time enough to check this at the moment. Only twenty minutes a session allowed, but the web access is free and the coffee is cheap.
Victor Keegan on the Opinion page suggests that Open Office 2.0 is "much improved" but not yet "friendly enough for most users". It may be no less friendly than Microsoft if you get used to it. I am trying to learn more about the few features I can't yet get to work. At the social Source meeting last week I found out a bit about the Open Document format. This is XML based. They claimed it was better for storing documents than PDF, even if PDF was used for publishing. So far as I know Open Office is the main software currently available for Open Documents.
In time, this format could be used for online collaboration in as many software contexts as are imagined.
Meanwhile Adobe server software is still expensive, I think. So PDF is unlikely to be seen as a collaboration format by many people.
No time to add links, except
The Adult College
In the Guardian Jack Schofield is writing about Web 2.0. It seems that Microsoft has convinced him there is something going on. Still not clear what Web 2.0 is.
"Where Web 1.0 was mainly a publishing medium, Web 2.0 offers more flexibility and interactivity." That is a quote from Jack Schofield, proper print journalist copied from actual hard copy. Not a blog or conference pitch from San Francisco.
As memory serves Tim O'Reilley compares publishing and collaboration as features of 1 and 2. Not time enough to check this at the moment. Only twenty minutes a session allowed, but the web access is free and the coffee is cheap.
Victor Keegan on the Opinion page suggests that Open Office 2.0 is "much improved" but not yet "friendly enough for most users". It may be no less friendly than Microsoft if you get used to it. I am trying to learn more about the few features I can't yet get to work. At the social Source meeting last week I found out a bit about the Open Document format. This is XML based. They claimed it was better for storing documents than PDF, even if PDF was used for publishing. So far as I know Open Office is the main software currently available for Open Documents.
In time, this format could be used for online collaboration in as many software contexts as are imagined.
Meanwhile Adobe server software is still expensive, I think. So PDF is unlikely to be seen as a collaboration format by many people.
No time to add links, except
The Adult College
Wednesday, October 26, 2005
The Auricle weblog has started to include stuff about quality
Recently there have been posts about Deming on Radio 4 and also a survey on benchmarking.
This is a really helpful development for me. I have found previously that UK academics are often opposed to quality ideas of any kind.
I still can't comment on the Auricle blog. the method has changed but it still seems not to work.
Still, i have added more to the Guardian Talk topic. Hope the Auricle readers find it sometimes.
http://educationtalk.guardian.co.uk/WebX?50@auricle@.7747911d
Recently there have been posts about Deming on Radio 4 and also a survey on benchmarking.
This is a really helpful development for me. I have found previously that UK academics are often opposed to quality ideas of any kind.
I still can't comment on the Auricle blog. the method has changed but it still seems not to work.
Still, i have added more to the Guardian Talk topic. Hope the Auricle readers find it sometimes.
http://educationtalk.guardian.co.uk/WebX?50@auricle@.7747911d
Tuesday, October 04, 2005
Adtech was really interesting, in particular the Google University.
An article for OhmyNews was accepted and has had more response than most of my other articles.I think this is a good way forward. Journalism seems to work better than academic writing.
I got over some ideas about quality and how learning could fit in with this. Since writing the article I have found some more about a theory of learning Google might connect with. They are supporting the project for cheap computers promoted by the Media Lab at MIT.
"
Negroponte explained “This is not teaching as we know it; only part of our learning comes from teaching. Much of it comes from curiosity. These are tools that can help cultivate that learning process.”
"
Other links to explore later
http://www.connectedfamily.com/main_alt.html
Seymour Papert has a lead role on education ideas
http://laptop.media.mit.edu/
base for the laptop
An article for OhmyNews was accepted and has had more response than most of my other articles.I think this is a good way forward. Journalism seems to work better than academic writing.
I got over some ideas about quality and how learning could fit in with this. Since writing the article I have found some more about a theory of learning Google might connect with. They are supporting the project for cheap computers promoted by the Media Lab at MIT.
"
Negroponte explained “This is not teaching as we know it; only part of our learning comes from teaching. Much of it comes from curiosity. These are tools that can help cultivate that learning process.”
"
Other links to explore later
http://www.connectedfamily.com/main_alt.html
Seymour Papert has a lead role on education ideas
http://laptop.media.mit.edu/
base for the laptop
Monday, September 26, 2005
Second cut and paste from the Equel site. My probings have been there some time with no reply .
-----------------http://equel.net/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=74
Not sure if this links without you logging in. You need to find the 'hints and tips' then the social forum. Not too easy to navigate, like much of the site.
Is anything still happening?by Will Pollard - Friday, 2 September 2005, 04:03 PM Hello again
Is this still a live project?
I am wondering why nothing seems to be happening. The previous web site was fairly flat for messages also.
Is it because actual use of the web is not really a prority? Sorry if I'm being rude but I have been thinking since a recent conference on Leadership and FE about how theory might be implemented, rendered useful for people in practice.
I'm not sure this is actually the aim of the Equel project. Papers exist as outputs. So that's ok. This site remains more or less moribund though.
Have you had a look at Prolearn? http://www.prolearn-project.org/
It seems to me that the scope here includes quality and organisation. I think this is positive.
I will write more at the website http://www.learn9.net
also on the Guardian talk / education
Any comment welcome
Will Pollard
will.pollard@gmail.com
Re: is anything still happening?by Will Pollard - Wednesday, 7 September 2005, 12:07 PM Copy message from Guardian Talk
Polly Toynbee is still wrong about Iraq in my opinion but she makes some interesting points about UK universities- http://mediatalk.guardian.co.uk/WebX?12@pollyt@.774809ad/5
"No government relishes the academic backlash that would follow any suggestion that perhaps some of what is taught at university is not useful, enjoyable or intellectually elevating for most students. The interesting is often made deliberately obscure and the simple embellished with academic obfuscation, while students are taught to write in dense academic style. It is not philistine to suggest that most humanities students might have their minds stimulated by a more general curriculum across a range of disciplines, opening wider windows instead of treating them all like trainee academics. As for the value of some research, no politician dare touch that domain."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1564212,00.html
One benefit of publishing academic research on the web could be a crossover of styles. Maybe this could assist understanding.
http://mediatalk.guardian.co.uk/WebX?50@pollyetc@.774809ad
to continue talk at Guardian
-----------------http://equel.net/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=74
Not sure if this links without you logging in. You need to find the 'hints and tips' then the social forum. Not too easy to navigate, like much of the site.
Is anything still happening?by Will Pollard - Friday, 2 September 2005, 04:03 PM Hello again
Is this still a live project?
I am wondering why nothing seems to be happening. The previous web site was fairly flat for messages also.
Is it because actual use of the web is not really a prority? Sorry if I'm being rude but I have been thinking since a recent conference on Leadership and FE about how theory might be implemented, rendered useful for people in practice.
I'm not sure this is actually the aim of the Equel project. Papers exist as outputs. So that's ok. This site remains more or less moribund though.
Have you had a look at Prolearn? http://www.prolearn-project.org/
It seems to me that the scope here includes quality and organisation. I think this is positive.
I will write more at the website http://www.learn9.net
also on the Guardian talk / education
Any comment welcome
Will Pollard
will.pollard@gmail.com
Re: is anything still happening?by Will Pollard - Wednesday, 7 September 2005, 12:07 PM Copy message from Guardian Talk
Polly Toynbee is still wrong about Iraq in my opinion but she makes some interesting points about UK universities- http://mediatalk.guardian.co.uk/WebX?12@pollyt@.774809ad/5
"No government relishes the academic backlash that would follow any suggestion that perhaps some of what is taught at university is not useful, enjoyable or intellectually elevating for most students. The interesting is often made deliberately obscure and the simple embellished with academic obfuscation, while students are taught to write in dense academic style. It is not philistine to suggest that most humanities students might have their minds stimulated by a more general curriculum across a range of disciplines, opening wider windows instead of treating them all like trainee academics. As for the value of some research, no politician dare touch that domain."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1564212,00.html
One benefit of publishing academic research on the web could be a crossover of styles. Maybe this could assist understanding.
http://mediatalk.guardian.co.uk/WebX?50@pollyetc@.774809ad
to continue talk at Guardian
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